Just curiosity: what advantahes would a jitsi app have over the existing BBB app?
@anon71540698 true not much maybe besides the end to end encryption algorithm part maybe?
I only would like some choice available for the average users. 3 differents solutions doesn’t seem to be that much.
And yeah sure the end to end encryption is maybe overkill but when you host your nextcloud on a foreign vps it’s still nice that what can be encrypted is. And in a independent way from the whole system.
That makes sense…
Especially considering the COVID-19 darling Zoom misleading statements…
I tried it once (around March, I believe) but the speed penalty was too severe.
The non-encryption version was running just fine and handling 12-15 participants without issues.
Everything was running on our own servers in a university setting…
It is a bit similar to the effect of using VPN (Cisco ASA, Juniper, Sophos).
Standard 2-4 CPUs (Cisco vASA) choke on encrypted video streams; we tried that as well.
You need serious horsepower to make this remotely acceptable…
Where jitsi is made to make encryption feasible with small overhead and need of horsepower. If nextcloud could integrate jitsi completely, but I never tried to install a jitsi server so I don’t know if it can be linked to a docker server
I haven’t gotten around to try HPB yet. Without it Talk is good between two people.
I use the BBB app and have no complains…
If you like you can test the HPB from Struktur AG for free.
But i do not know if you can use it for 14 or 30 days.
I have not test it.
https://www.spreed.eu/shop/
https://www.spreed.eu/de/shop/ (german)
I believe the commercial version is good but want to test it on our own hardware.
How it installs, how it coexists with other servers - OnlyOffice, coTURN, BBB, etc.
I have only so many shots asking 10+ people help me test a new videoconference system…
without HPB talk is also good with more then 2 people. 5-10 depending on the options are not a problem.
for bigger meetings/webinars or features like recording you need a dedicated conference software like bigbluebutton (BBB). don´t host this solution next to your nextcloud as they need high and dedicated server ressources.
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On the same subnet - maybe.
When scattered across town - work from home - 3-4 is the max what can be called usable.
I’m looking for Zoom replacement. Talk without HPB can’t hold a candle against them…
We have plenty of resources…
And we definitely need offers for individual customer. I already sent the same comments to sendent. Unless we only want nextcloud to be something for enterprise or rich customer, there should always be an offer for individual customer.
Something with limitation like amount capabilities of user or session at the same time etc. Not only a free period but a real private customer offer like a few euros a month only
We do, but… What is the market for those tools?
Whether you like it or not, the majority of user don’t give a rat’s ass about security.
Case in point: GMail offers 2FA for almost 10 years… Less than 10% of users activated it…
And if security is not important - why not use Zoom/Meet?
The convenience of those definitely beats anything open source can offer…
The market exist and is big enough to sustain or have a company running with it.
Yeah sure you won’t be the next Microsoft but I’m sorry to say this if it hurts but it has never been the goal.
I’d it is the goal then you need to come up with an idea like the next PayPal or something. Not something open-source and centered about the well being of people.
Look at protonmail, are they a super big company? No. But they are receiving money from the European fund. Because Europe and some countries’ heads are beginning to understand that they need to have their own solutions.
For what I know, nextcloud is German. Sendent is from netherlands, ovh is french, etc. If they were a little more about “coalition” and a bit less about I’m going to do my thing in my corner, people like me could dedicate all their time, or they could hire some professional lobbyists to actually make a difference in Europe about what we are all using (we as institutions or even average people).
They could be subsidized by the European Comission. They could be used by schools in Belgium, France, Germany, Luxemburg,… By government of those countries, by landers in Germany or by cities etc. And by they I’m saying all those open-source solutions or service provider which are for a big part from Europe, could be regroup in a one big solution that would be easy to sell to the institutions.
And because it is used by the institutions, then there would be some publicity about it among the workers etc.
Don’t forget henry that there isn’t publicity at all. And publicity in the whole history of humankind is what has been made known things to people.
People are lazy by definition. And it’s totally fine, but so informations need to come their way not the other way around. It’s the whole lesson of any good user experience expert could give you.
So no, there is a market for it. The goal is not to become as rich or as big as a Google. The goal is to give diversity and to actually give a viable solution to the mega Corps. The day all those little companies are working together or hire people like me to convince first those little companies to trust each other and to actually work with each other, then to convince institutions to use their all-in-one package, then you will start to notice a big shift.
And it won’t happen without that as a miracle in society.
And if zoom has been largely adopted is first because of the commercials in the US and the use of countless government and companies.
Even with the latest scandal about the journalist joining a meeting of the differents defense ministers in Europe on zoom.
They wouldn’t have use zoom if the IT department of the EU at brussels were correctly informed. And again, people are lazy so they won’t change their habits if you don’t explain to them personally why they need too or if they don’t meet a wall of brick in their face.
I know several IT in the EU at brussels still defending Microsoft teams or zoom or cisco webex. So no it’s not about people don’t want to adopt 2FA and the convenience of zoom.
It’s about the fact that you want them to search for the information and to know better. Or you want them try new solutions by themselves. But that’s never been how humans have worked for millenia.
That’s where we do our mistake in our reasoning.
I wrote about this before on this very forum: CERN is dumping most (but not all!) Microsoft technologies and replacing them with open source. It even includes Nextcloud’s parent - ownCloud. That is the best example I know to promote those technologies at the moment… It might have a longer term effect on schools, colleges, universities, for example but that’s not a given…
There is also the spectacularly failed attempt by Munich to switch to Linux. Regardless of the reasoning behind it, this will always weigh on the potential candidate’s decision making…
I use lots of open source (in the server room, not desktop).
And the primary reason I can do that is - my users don’t have a say. And my bosses don’t care as along as the job is done. The accumulated over the years “brownly” points due to needing a fraction of the expected budget definitely helps…
But, while I can make my bosses use BBB on Nextcloud when having a talk with me, they will never use it between themselves… And this is never going to change (unless I become their boss…)…
I think that’s where you are mistaken.
The only thing you have to do is to show on a regularly basis how simple it is. It s like password managers. We succeed pretty well to include them in the environment.
For those who have actually tried it and include them they wouldn’t imagine to live without it. So you see?
You don’t need to overcomplicate things with 2FA etc. Because then for sure it will make people flee. Nextcloud talk is pretty simple to use. As jitsi is etc.
Why the Munich system has failed it s because they over complicated things and didn’t teach workers to play correctly with things.
Small example.
How much people are using the search tool from windows? Nearly none. Besides IT I mean. And it s the same for mac users.
The whole point of windows 8 was to make people use the windows search as a reach to all tool. You shouldn’t use the start menu anymore. The only thing you touch should be the search tool.
It is the same mistake at Munich. It is the same mistake everywhere else. If you don’t explain and most importantly show to people how to use something.
That’s why a submenu like in Microsoft products but also elsewhere for open recent is always a bad idea and has always been and should be reserved to advanced users. Because of that submenu, people and especially people who don’t like computers or too old to willingly adapt will never use the explorer to go through their documents nor use the search tool. No, what they do is, open recent documents. I have many example around me for that. Just a simple example my old father who still works even if he shouldn’t.
I’m sure that I would set up a open access nextcloud vps with the guests extensions to use nextcloud talk and show him how to use it simply with his smartphone and I m sure I would convince your boss to not use anything else even with his friends.
Well, now we are in fairytale territory…
Look, I was born 60+ years ago in Soviet Union, lived there half my life, don’t believe in tales anymore… Human behavior is the same everywhere: go with the flow, minimum friction, etc.
RE: 2FA
I pushed users to use it (when the first blue Yubikeys - FIDO - came out), showed the simplicity, even convinced the department to pay for them… 50 to start… Still have ~40 in my drawer…
At the same time, I use Yubikey NEO with an open source 2FA system to access health data. Had a 2-month duscussion with the data provider… Convinced them this is as good - if not better - than RSA SecurID (~$250/user/year)… Using ever since…
About 200 people… No other options… Working fine, no complains… Users have no say…
I run 3 NC servers for employees (linked to different ADs), federation between them… It is used by about a dozen people regularly… But most use Slack…
You said this twice: people are lazy… I’d put it less charitably…
Not going to change anytime soon… Regardless, I’m getting ready to retire…
I could say a lot about sociological point of view on your different points and yeah you are partly true.
But just for the last part did you for example set up a guest area for those who would like to use some functionalities with their friends?
Of course… First, with ownCloud, then with Nextcloud and groupfolders… Including outsiders…
It quickly deteriorated into media exchange platform…
Bottom line: you need a “benevolent dictatorship” environment for this to succeed. But let’s be honest, when implemented, this has a higher risk of downside than upside…
Let see how far CERN can take it. They represent a model close enough to publicly funded institutions. If they succeed there might be a future in it…
EU is trying its best to keep level playing field… Taxing silicon giants, invalidating Privacy Shield… With mixed success…
There is hope… But the odds are very slim.
I m curious how it did deteriorate. How is that bad? You succeed there with something don’t you see it? They did use it massively it means… So where is the problème? That they didn’t use nextcloud talk?
If it is that, did you ask them why they didn’t use it?