Videoconference performance

Sir @jospoortvliet Thank you for the information and looking forward for NC Talk enhancement and to use without HPB to get about 20 participants.

as of now we setup our own server for video conference using jitsi and very nice videocon open source solution

uisng only 4core cpu and 5gb memory Ubuntu 18.04 had nice audio and video quality with 10 to 30 participants.

With this looking forward also to NC can integrate Jitsi

Thank you

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The only real way to compete against Jitsi and BigBlueButton in the selfhosted Open Source space is an Open Source SFU/MCU like Kurento or OpenVidu that works with Talk. Not even Geant advises Talk but rather Jitsi as a conference tool. I think you have to update your strategy a bit.

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We just don’t have the resources to build a back-end, sorry. Also, we don’t need to replace every other solution in the world, BigBlueButton and Jitsi are great as they are and people should use them when appropriate. Talk will improve but we will focus on the end user experience and leave the underlying tech to others, like we do with everything (we don’t develop file systems, LDAP, mail servers etc etc either).

And as I’ve said before, if you or others are very motivated to provide a free conferencing solution for large businesses, go ahead and build it. We always wanted to provide people with a private, self-hosted solution, that’s what motivates us, not helping companies save money. Free Software is about freedom, not ‘free beer’. Freedom is something for people, not companies.

I personally would 10x rather spend time making Talk easier to install and adding features to it that help private users than stop doing that and building a back-end for big companies instead. I do not understand why you care so much about that…

And with regards to strategy, what do you think our strategy is? Making software that costs no money for companies? Not exactly. :stop_sign: Our strategy is to make great software for private users :heart_eyes: and make companies :office: pay for that work, so I have no tears :crying_cat_face: for companies that complain it costs money :money_with_wings: How else could we make Nextcloud better? Eat air and drink angry user posts on our forums? :angry:

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That is exactly what Kurento and OpenVidu would be, in line with “not reinventing the wheel”.

The problem is that it isn’t quite useful for more than 5-7 people at best and even then it is problematic. I do not want users (be it home users or small companies that can’t pay a huge sum) to go away to Skype, Hangouts, Meet, Zoom and so on, but it is very hard to archive that with Talk at the moment.

I don’t care much about big corporations (they can bleed money if you want to put it that way), but you still have no offering for small and medium businesses and yes, they need something reliable.

No, but as I said before, not everybody runs a big corporation, and SMB’s are left out in the dark while making up most of the companies out there. An affordable option for them (not free as in “free beer”) would make it easier to get Nextcloud out there to these companies. Big corporations can “bleed”, as I said before, I don’t really care about them.

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I agree with you. Another option could be mediasoup which is the backend of multiparty-meeting. It seems very powerful about 130 users per room.

And as I’ve said before, if you or others are very motivated to provide a free conferencing solution for large businesses, go ahead and build it. We always wanted to provide people with a private, self-hosted solution, that’s what motivates us, not helping companies save money. Free Software is about freedom, not ‘free beer’. Freedom is something for people, not companies.

I personally would 10x rather spend time making Talk easier to install and adding features to it that help private users than stop doing that and building a back-end for big companies instead. I do not understand why you care so much about that…

And with regards to strategy, what do you think our strategy is? Making software that costs no money for companies? Not exactly. :stop_sign: Our strategy is to make great software for private users :heart_eyes: and make companies :office: pay for that work, so I have no tears :crying_cat_face: for companies that complain it costs money :money_with_wings: How else could we make Nextcloud better? Eat air and drink angry user posts on our forums?

There are countless reasons why private and non-commercial users may want to use Nextcloud’s features on a larger scale. Just one current example is here, where a user is trying to implement video conferencing with their daughter’s schoolmates.

In my case (among other groups that I help with their I.T) I run a server for a large extended family, because I’m the only one with the experience. Of all the open source software I selected for this purpose, it’s only Nextcloud where we’re bumping into this attitude. No-one expects you to provide for free those services you defined as your business model – professional support, consultancy, and customisation – but this position that anyone with a need for more than a couple of users must be businesses, and you’re not interested in helping them, is ridiculous.

Nextcloud is very keen to talk about how their mission is to allow people to host their own data, and reclaim their privacy. But, did it occur to you that only a small percentage of the population have the skills to set up and maintain their own servers, and therefore, if you’re serious about this reaching as many people as possible, it will be necessary for those few to provide setups for larger groups of people? And yet, when we go beyond a tiny number of users, you decree that this is not “individual use” and that you’re not interested in helping us “get things for free”. If you were genuinely concerned about maximizing the number of people defending their privacy from cloud providers, this clearly makes no sense.

(To the moderators: before you start locking or chopping up the thread, Nextcloud are defending their position in the context of this topic. For us to challenge that is no more off-topic than the defence itself.)

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Sure it does. People need to eat. I’d be happy if we could hire 100 more people and provide everything for free. But it is rather the opposite way - the more we provide for free, the less people we can hire and the less code we can write. Tell me a strategy that allows us to do everything, 100% free/gratis, yet grow our company 100X so we can actually compete with Microsoft et all in terms of capabilities while ALSO rewriting all products of all our partners that are proprietary, like ONLYOFFICE and the HPB. I’m sure there are literally thousands of open source people who had to give up on their idea of getting paid to write open source and who’d be super interested in that idea.

I promise you, if there was a way, we’d do it. So tell me.

Yeah, it’s a gap, don’t think I don’t see that, of course it is. And we even occasionally give free subscriptions and HPB to a few charities, for this reason. And big discounts (in the 90% area!) for education. I’ve been putting a lot of effort in finding a solution for SMB and charities, and to help private users who can’t host themselves - that is why we did Simple Signup. And why several of our partners have offerings for such organizations and hopefully we’ll be able to do more. But we want to make Nextcloud better, not stop paying people to work on it.

If you can’t come up with a realistic way to do that then you, Alfred and others are just going to have to accept that we decided that the best way to make a great product is to get paid for doing it, even if that means, in a few cases, that we’d rather have had them use it for free. Arguing for the same thing without offering any real solution is a waste of everyone’s time, that is why the admins shut it down.

EDIT: if you don’t mind, I’ll go back to work now. Read my recent blog post, watch the talks I gave and read the upcoming article on opensource.com if you want to read more about this - but I really won’t have time to reply on the forums anymore, sorry.

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The problem is, that

the user does not recognize the difference between free software and no costs

In Deutsch:
Freie Software bedeutet nicht unbedingt kostenlos







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Ok. You try to frame things as if I need to offer an alternative to your current approach, but all I’m saying is that you should stick to what Nextcloud told us was the business model – working with the community to create fully open software without restrictions, and selling professional support, SLAs, and consultancy to large enterprises. I don’t need to propose a new idea – I was quite happy with that one! Originally, it was specifically stated that the target customers were very large enterprises into the thousands of users, not small organisations. This idea that any installation with needs beyond the size of a family unit must be a business that should pay up (and the attitude towards them) is something that’s crept in over time, and I think it’s detrimental to the project.

If you were looking for ways to monetize smaller organisations, I think you made a mistake by not offering your own hosted service. I realise that this might seem counter to the idea of a private cloud, but I don’t really think that makes much sense. In the end, if people trust you to create the software that protects their privacy, they might as well trust you to provide a private hosting service, too. By using third-party hosts we have to trust two parties instead of just one. And, crucially, anyone that chooses not to exercise that trust still has the option of running their own server. To my mind, that is a very acceptable offer from the company to the community – you are free to expend your own resources on supporting your own installation, but we can offer good value on running it for you. I think that really is a win-win, with no need for shenanigans.

In terms of you trying to grow the company to the point where it can single-handedly take on Microsoft, I’m certainly not harbouring that delusion, and I hope you’re not either. But the logic that whatever action is good for the company’s profits is therefore good for the open source project is clearly flawed. One doesn’t have to look very far around the open source landscape to see that. That’s what Owncloud was (allegedly) doing, and then it got forked…

The strategy that might actually make a difference (and the one many of us bought into), is to build up a healthy open source community that works together towards the stated goals, by keeping the needs of the community and the company in balance. I think very few people are going to be interested in contributing to Talk, when clearly the real action is in the HPB. Going down this road of embracing open core functionality, and trying to extract from smaller organisations, is very short-sighted - what you are actually doing is limiting yourself to being a relatively small player. IMO, this is not the way to build the sort of community project that attracts such wide buy-in that it disrupts the industry (and they do exist). I also think that the attitude you’ve taken recently will actually work to limit the potential of Nextcloud in that larger sense, even if your balance sheet has seen a boost.

I’m not suggesting that you rewrite the HPB and OnlyOffice, which is clearly infeasible. The limitations of both Talk and OO for community users have recently both been sharply highlighted. Resources spent on Talk and OnlyOffice could have been spent on integrating Jitsi and Libreoffice Online (which impose no proprietary restrictions) and helping to improve those projects. In terms of suggesting positive ideas, that would be one of them.

In the case of Talk, we must bear in mind that Nextcloud, Spreed, and Struktur AG cannot really be thought of as separate entities. If Struktur/Nextcloud really wanted to stay fully open, they have the option of open-sourcing the HPB tomorrow – no rewriting required. I doubt that’s going to happen though, because it’s all about selling the proprietary product.

In terms of what I’m saying not having any positive purpose or proposed solutions, that’s entirely wrong. I’m saying that there has been a clear change of direction and attitude in recent times, which I think are mistakes for the project, and I would like to see the course corrected to bring the needs of the company and community back into better balance. In particular, this attitude of suspicion and derision towards anyone with needs beyond those of a small household needs to stop.

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Well, this user understands that perfectly well. The question at hand is about the strategy of the company in the context of a community/company open source partnership project, and how it affects that relationship and its future. And, also the integration of proprietary software into the mix. Please don’t be simplistic.

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Affordable doesn’t mean the same as “free beer”.

Okay, then how about this (call it “Nextcloud Hub for Professionals” if you like):

  • Strictly self support (or maybe one ticket per year for 30 minutes, everything above costs extra)
  • Access to the Nextcloud portal for advanced configuration documentation
  • Onlyoffice with mobile editing and other “advanced” features for 5-10 users
  • Nextcloud Talk with HPB for 5-15 users (maybe 10 users and 5 guests)
  • Outlook Plugin for 5-10 users

Putting this on UCS for example would make it a complete solution from the ground up if it is affordable priced for SMB companies.

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You can improve your know how. Also you can improve the source code.

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Let open a real community driven experience and a call for donations and a bounty for features.
Dev will get paid, if not enough money comes in, it will be on the community dev to work on it because Nextcloud GmbH can’t pay dev for that.

This would be similar to OPSI co-funding of features:

As @Semjel said, don’t be simplistic and think people here don’t know what they are talking about.

Yes. But you can also use a microsoft cloud, pay for it and downgrade your know how. And yes you must not read source code and you can never modify software or software packages.

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Nextcloud Talk Backend As posted here is being coded in linked Gitlab.

Since the default internal signaling was not usable on my system and Nextcloud’s own High-Performance-Backend is not affordable by private users, I decided to take a shot and implement a signaling server based on what can be found in the source of Nextcloud Talk and the API documentation.

Signaling Server

The signaling server itself communicates over a WebSocket connection. For better performance it is recommended to use a separate MCU/SFU. I worked with Janus but I try to keep the interface abstract so it should be possible to expand the connectors for using other servers (Jitsi, etc.)

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Hi thanks a lot for this.
I want to test IT.
Is it possible to share a little howto to get this running on Ubuntu 18.04 lts Server?
Best regards Patrick

Two interesting projects that allow to use nextcloud with BBB and jitsi:

2 posts were split to a new topic: Private use of talk during Coronavirus disease 2019

Hello,

In my school, we have big blue button and it works for more than 100 people !
And zoom is not a good solution : problem of security, they sold your data to FB, it’s an proprietary American application (patriot act)…

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