NextCloud Lite ? Discuss

rogerco · December 29, 2024, 9:07am

Suggestion for a cut down but compatible version of Nextcloud which focuses on cloud file sharing and CalDAV support. ie remove almost all the apps and collaboration and security bloat (which may not be bloat to you, but is if you don’t ever use it)

Having been using NC sinceit was just OwnCloud I find that in some instances (eg for personal and family use) I don’t ever use 90% of the surface functionality of NC.

I almost never visit the web interface for NC, or use any of the bundled apps. All I actually use it for in these instances is a means of sharing files between devices (computers and mobile) and users (who don’t need any online collaboration tools but sync files to share them and want shared calendar, tasks/deck, journal, and contacts.

Likewise for hobbyist use the lockdown approach to security and app development is not helpful.

I appreciate that NC has evolved in the direction of trying to be an open(-ish) source alternative to google microsoft amazon etc but this has rather killed the original simple concept.

A lite version could co-exist with the full commercial offering as a simpler alternative.

Anyone else see the use for this?

tflidd · December 29, 2024, 10:34am

Voila, you have your “Nextcloud lite”. What else do you need?

Many probably use the “lite” approach and just use on top of that the 1-2 apps they find useful.

SysKeeper · December 29, 2024, 10:40am

Additionally, security should never be considered bloat…

tflidd · December 29, 2024, 10:51am

More code, more things to fail … Crowdstrike, anti-virus, … some created problems that you wouldn’t have without them. Not everything labelled “security” always enhanced real security. And some features might not be needed (e.g. file access control, to restrict access to certain conditions) in your environment. But in Nextcloud, it is up to you what you install and what you use.

SysKeeper · December 29, 2024, 10:55am

I guess it depends on what kind of security features we are talking about. I see so many people disabling bruteforce protection for example that it scares me.
Sure, things like access control can be considered optional, but as you said, that’s why it’s an app. Core security should never be optional. And that includes things like updating server software itself and configuring it correctly.
But of course, every feature comes with a risk of having bugs.

JimmyKater · December 29, 2024, 11:03am

I personally don’t see the need of discussing NC “lite” in any way.

If you don’t like to feature certain things on your instance you can easily de-activate estimated 90% of it with just 1 click (each).
I haven’t checked it with sharing in NC 30.x but there has been versions where you even could disable that core feature without any problems.

So why not disabling what you don’t want/need/like and poof - you have your personal NC “lite”

rogerco · December 29, 2024, 11:07am

I understand what you are saying, but I find that often it goes too far. 2FA logins seem particularly intrusive and frankly no security at all if it sends a text message or email code to the device you are using to access the secured thing (eg many banking apps). For NC fortunately it is just an option.

For NC it used to be that it was easy to develop app modifications and indeed new apps by editing the code, but now it seems to be all locked down with checksums etc - in OS software I expect to be able to modify the core code as I wish for my own instance without having to engage with a specific app dev process or store (I gave up on Apple years ago because of this).

I expect to be able to access the NC file store from another process or program without having the folder locked down to owner only (yes I know sudo and chmod works).

I’m thinking a lite version would be completely open. Aeroplanes don’t fall out of the sky because some script kiddie poked around inside my server or device. I’m not storing state secrets and really don’t care if someone finds out when my dog’s birthday is, or reads my Christmas letter to Cousin Jack down under. If someone hacks their way in and destroys everything its a pain but not serious, less bother than a physical burglary which costs money to replace stuff.

But I realise other people get pretty hung up about this stuff, and I have no criticism of them for that - I just object to being dragged along with it.

rogerco · December 29, 2024, 11:13am

Yes to those who suggest that you can just turn most things off - indeed I do.

I was just wondering if there were enough of us who do that to make it worth having a version which simply didn’t include any of that to start with. Apps can always be installed later as the need arises.

The security lockdowns might be harder to retrofit which is why I suggest a separate simpler version that didn’t have that stuff but used the same database structure and data folder so that you could later simply upgrade to a secure full version and keep your data and files, overwriting any hacked files and adding any required by the big boys permissions.

JimmyKater · December 29, 2024, 11:16am

sure thing. That’s your individual approach. not everyone must share that one.

And now let’s imagine the storm that sure enough would come if someone running “lite” would really face data loss or a hacker intruding their server. It would damage the good security image of NC without NC being responsible for it because said admin decided activly to disable certain features causing securityholes, etc.

I bet nobody wants to carry that responsibilty and thus I’m afraid you won’t find any official “lite” version. IMHO.

But as said above already: you’re free to do whatever you want with your personal cloud.

i think it’s better to deliver a base-version as safe and as secure it only can be. It’s easier to disable things than to enable them later. believe me

rogerco · December 29, 2024, 11:25am

One more limitation of the ‘turn off the things you don’t want’ approach is that for many of the apps you can turn them off, but you can’t remove them. ie they are still there taking up space, and doing only the designers know what else…

AdamAnon · December 29, 2024, 3:55pm

Yes! I use Nextcloud strictly for synchronization and always disable all apps and features except for some of the security related ones.

I would also welcome a Lite version that comes without all the unnecessary weight which might also improve stability and reliability, especially the reliability of server updates.

ernolf · December 29, 2024, 4:19pm

Aha! Security concerns about disabled apps?
but script kiddies are welcome to dig through your server
Exactly my kind of humour!!

ernolf

JimmyKater · December 29, 2024, 5:17pm

@AdamAnon (and @rogerco )

I tried to explain why it’s most unlikely to expect an official “lite” version in some of my answers above.

But as this is Open source everyone can make a fork and rename it, edit the sourcecode and release it by it’s new name.

So you are free to do that… and call it “NxCld lite” (well… I’m not exactly sure that you are allowed to call it “Nextcloud” as there are active TMs set).
go for it and let us all know about it! We’re looking forward to v1.0 - get a link out to it here on the forum.

and @ernolf is quite right… about the humour thing… I almost missed it but it’s hilarious!

rakekniven · December 29, 2024, 6:14pm

How much space is it on your installation?

tflidd · December 29, 2024, 7:31pm

Background, before that, people often copied over files in the past. They often ended up with files from different versions, and that caused large problems that were difficult to debug. As far as I know, this is currently a warning. I did some fixes to apps or Nextcloud itself, until the code was fixed in the next version, I just ignored the warning.

Well, the current 30.0.4.tar.bz2 compressed archive is 179 MB while the early NC 1x versions were rather around 32-60 MB.

Not sure if it possible to cut out some apps. Since some apps are considered “core”, they are not on the app store to be added later easily. Perhaps you can check the archives, if there is the major/apps function that increased the size so much.

I like the idea of Linux distributions, where you have a desktop version where you get a decent Desktop environment with all the apps and also a minimal version, where just the OS is running with network connection.

For Nextcloud, we should first check, what makes the difference.

devnull · December 29, 2024, 8:52pm

Minimal Nextcloud installation is between 600 and 700 MB. A lot of needed e.g. small parts. Big e.g. not needed but installed parts are Nextcloud Photos and Nextcloud Text.

leachimus · December 30, 2024, 1:22am

I think this is what you need!

bb77 · December 30, 2024, 11:39am

So that everyone can form an informed opinion as to whether the term ‘bloat’ is really justified here, this is the ./apps folder of a fresh ‘minimal’ installation, with only Calendar and Contacts enabled from the additional apps supplied…

 --- /var/www/nextcloud/apps ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
   72.7 MiB [####################] /calendar
   59.6 MiB [################    ] /notify_push
   52.6 MiB [##############      ] /photos
   47.2 MiB [############        ] /text
   33.1 MiB [#########           ] /files_pdfviewer
   24.9 MiB [######              ] /password_policy
   19.6 MiB [#####               ] /theming
   19.5 MiB [#####               ] /app_api
   18.1 MiB [####                ] /contacts
   18.1 MiB [####                ] /suspicious_login
   17.5 MiB [####                ] /privacy
   16.0 MiB [####                ] /recommendations
   15.9 MiB [####                ] /bruteforcesettings
   15.2 MiB [####                ] /viewer
   11.5 MiB [###                 ] /settings
   11.0 MiB [###                 ] /firstrunwizard
   10.2 MiB [##                  ] /activity
   10.1 MiB [##                  ] /notifications
    7.9 MiB [##                  ] /logreader
    7.7 MiB [##                  ] /twofactor_totp
    5.5 MiB [#                   ] /circles
    5.5 MiB [#                   ] /related_resources
    5.5 MiB [#                   ] /files
    5.3 MiB [#                   ] /dav
    5.2 MiB [#                   ] /user_ldap
    5.1 MiB [#                   ] /twofactor_nextcloud_notification
    4.8 MiB [#                   ] /files_downloadlimit
    4.7 MiB [#                   ] /files_sharing
    3.6 MiB [                    ] /files_external
    2.0 MiB [                    ] /support
    1.9 MiB [                    ] /encryption
    1.6 MiB [                    ] /serverinfo
    1.5 MiB [                    ] /updatenotification
    1.4 MiB [                    ] /systemtags
    1.4 MiB [                    ] /federatedfilesharing
    1.4 MiB [                    ] /files_trashbin
    1.3 MiB [                    ] /files_versions
    1.3 MiB [                    ] /workflowengine
    1.2 MiB [                    ] /provisioning_api
    1.1 MiB [                    ] /sharebymail
    1.0 MiB [                    ] /survey_client
    1.0 MiB [                    ] /weather_status
  976.0 KiB [                    ] /comments
  932.0 KiB [                    ] /federation
  872.0 KiB [                    ] /nextcloud_announcements
  864.0 KiB [                    ] /user_status
  852.0 KiB [                    ] /twofactor_backupcodes
  832.0 KiB [                    ] /oauth2
  744.0 KiB [                    ] /admin_audit
  656.0 KiB [                    ] /dashboard
  608.0 KiB [                    ] /cloud_federation_api
  552.0 KiB [                    ] /files_reminders
  544.0 KiB [                    ] /contactsinteraction
  508.0 KiB [                    ] /lookup_server_connector
  272.0 KiB [                    ] /webhook_listeners

 Total disk usage: 561.4 MiB  Apparent size: 522.9 MiB  Items: 17355

…and here’s just the ‘security bloat’ that seems to be particularly bothering you, which is less than 80MiB in total:

   24.9 MiB [######              ] /password_policy
   18.1 MiB [####                ] /suspicious_login
   15.9 MiB [####                ] /bruteforcesettings
    7.7 MiB [##                  ] /twofactor_totp
    5.1 MiB [#                   ] /twofactor_nextcloud_notification
  852.0 KiB [                    ] /twofactor_backupcodes

I can only speak for myself, but I wouldn’t necessarily call that bloat in 2024. I mean, there are mobile phone apps that are bigger these days

Michiel_Breur · December 30, 2024, 1:16pm

If I’m honest do a bare installation and you got what you need? Security wise I wonder why owncloud has some stuff in the manual regarding this but nextcloud doesn’t?

I guess a lite docker version would do for most. Maybe even without the hub and just a portal to add users and set some rights.

Standard nextcloud functionality seems fine. Adding extra stuff is what makes it more complicated. Guessing it also depends on your needs. I’m still a noob at using and configuring NC. I got it working but now fighting the office bit which doesn’t feel straightforward using it on Mobile. Also you got the nextcloud app, talk app, passwords app (don’t know if there are more apps?)

Installing and configuring NC requires previous knowledge on Linux, apache, MySQL, proxy setup. I bet I missed some stuff. Without the guides I’ve used I’d probably never get it working.

Sure docker bypasses some of those. Even snap. But i think certain apps or addons should be blocked considering the base installation, maybe mention this in the sort of installation you want/need?

I just started with NC and I like the cloud part of it, synchronisation of files, adding more features outside of NC(Adguard+wireguard on the same machine) .

What I’d like to see is easier implementation of storage spaces, expanding storage for the current users without moving/changing background setting and moving data directories. Maybe it’s my cluelessness about configurations but again it should be easier like just adding a disk to the data pool (var/www/nextcloud/data/users) and some extra features in the administration part, fixing certain things, also when making a support question on the forum certain information is requested, logs, settings etc. why can’t NC run all the needed commands in the background and combine those to make a report?

My first time making such a report was really time consuming, log x.y.z, settings from OCC, x.php, y.php and z.php information. This should be easier. Also something as easy as clearing the nextcloud.log to clean clutter or old errors to get a clearer picture of what’s going on.

Disregard these comments if I talk nonsense.

bb77 · January 3, 2025, 9:21am

Yeah, I think you’ve summed it up pretty well, but I don’t think that removing any of the things OP mentioned, especially the security related stuff, or a Nextcloud Lite version as they call it, would inherently make installing and configuring Nextcloud any easier. Sure, Nextcloud itself would have fewer options, but it wouldn’t change much in terms of storage configuration and other things that need to be done on the underlying OS or in your network infrastructure.

Isn’t this part exactly the same in OwnCloud?

Or are you talking about OwnCloud Infinite Scale, which is a completely separate product developed from scratch and not based on the ‘classic’ OwnCloud from which Nextcloud was forked?

I don’t know how Infinite Scale handles storage, but it might indeed be a viable alternative to Nextcloud, or maybe even a better choice if all you really need is file sharing.