there was some direct contact with NC as there was one possible project to develop a NC integration but not enough slots were granted by Google to make it happen and NC did not fill the gap.
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Your comment give rise to points very interesting !
I didnāt know this library and I have to be attentive in future developments of Vue.js
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New remarks for the documentation.
I have to create a new section tab from files app on Groupfolders only.
But there is no documentation on this.
I had to search in the existing projects to know how I put a new section here.
Andā¦ I saw I should use the OCA library JavaScript side.
Butā¦ there is no documentation on this library.
So, I have to copy the code from existing project. Itās like the SOD (Stack Overflow Driven) for me 
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Maybe some app dev creates a topic to collect all things what are not in the documentation?
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It would definitely be interesting to learn what caused problems there and what the simplified approach is youāve taken. Iād always be happy to improve the documentation on my setup or adjust if we can make things easier.
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This does exist. There are Nextcloud Talk Chatrooms on https://cloud.nextcloud.com. You need somebody with the needed privileges to invite you to be able to join. I remeber that i was invited by Jan-Christoph Borchardt quite a while ago. It should not be hard to get an invite, you probably just need to ask.
The solution I found for me was https://www.gitpod.io. It lets you spin up dev environments in āthe cloudā with full root access and Visual Studio Code in mere seconds. If you add a gitpod configuration file to your repository, you can make it automatically start a nextcloud server.
Gitpod is like Github Workspaces, but Open Source, exists longer than Workspaces, can be self hosted and the hosted version has a free version and cheaper prices.
If you want to go this route you can use my Gitpod config for nextcloud apps by copying my .gitpod.yml config file and the gitpod directory next to it and modifying it to fit your own app.
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This is fantastic news, @Daphne 
Welcome! 
Iāve been waiting for an initiative like this for a long time, so I just want to add a few words.
I maintain two apps, TimeManager and Link Editor. The biggest issue for me is lacking documentation on almost everything.
My tooling / setup and struggles it addresses
This is what has made life easier for me after a lot of trial & error, in no particular order:
- Releases ā I wrote a webhook server to publish releases to the appstore that I host on Uberspace to automate the process of publishing releases through a Github webhook. It has the added benefit that my apps are an exact copy of what can be found in my repositories, since no manual steps are involved in the publish process. Before I had this script, it took me a lot of time to publish releases properly, without missing any steps. I think it should be a no-brainer to add publishing tools to the Nextcloud developer ecosystem. Publishing manually is a recipe for disaster, especially for less experienced developers.
- Development environment ā I use the official nextcloud docker container for development after years of barely getting by with MAMP. How to set up a proper development environment on Windows, Mac and Linux should be in the developer documentation, too. Especially since it needs some hand-holding to get up-and-running properly. Iād be more than happy if the documentation and docker-compose file that I use for my apps could be re-used in Nextcloudās docs.
- End-to-end tests ā The docker-compose setup I also use to run cypress end-to-end tests in Gitlab CI. Itās not at all perfect, but gives me more confidence when testing with new Nextcloud releases. There seems to be no documentation on end-to-end tests, even though ā in my opinion ā they are much more useful for UI-heavy Nextcloud apps than unit tests. We need documentation on how to write end-to-end tests and how to set up CI for them.
- PHP stubs and editor Intellisense ā Iāve started using Intelephense for Visual Studio Code and included my local Nextcloud git, as well as some stubs by @ChristophWurst, that can be found in composer, in its config. See this post. We urgently need documentation on how to set up most used editors for development. Iād never have guessed some deprecations or specific call signatures that I now get to see with this setup.
- PHP API ā This brings me to my last point: There appears to be no public roadmap for PHP APIs. I can never be sure what the latest and greatest way of doing things is (like loading assets, loading the current user object, routing, query building etc.), because things change all the time (with most of the legacy stuff staying around for a while, to be fair). The way I adapted to this, is to browse the core apps every once in a while to figure out what they changed. Also I subscribe to the Github issues on the server repository that mention breaking changes in each release. Finally, Iāve added a step to my CI tests that dump the nextcloud.log file to see if I missed any deprecation warnings or obscure errors during development. To fix this, we urgently need good documentation for all PHP APIs and some info on when theyāre no longer recommended to be used and what to use instead and how to use it.
- Missing basics ā Part of my problem is that I donāt understand Symfony very well, which I think most Nextcloud APIs are based on? The developer documentation should link to the Symfony documentation or any other 3rd-party library used where necessary and explain common concepts of that library (like naming, mappers, available super classes etc).
Nextcloud, the company, and developer relations
Iād be happy to help with this effort, but I also see Nextcloud as a company in (deep) debt here, because only they have the resources to hire someone like you to take a first shot at this. And since the whole ecosystem profits from good apps, I think there should be incentive to invest much more into developer relations, but I can remember that we mentioned this avenue to Frank a few years ago and he didnāt seem impressed ā¦ so thereās that 
Letās look around for good examples
Lastly, I want to suggest to not re-invent the wheel. We should take a look at other projects that have a successful (and diverse in terms of levels, from beginner to expert) app developer community. Iām not saying itās a prime example, but take a look at how good the WordPress documentation has gotten. It has examples on almost all methods, hooks, actions etc. It also has guides now to cover basic concepts and those guides are exhaustive.
I know the Nextcloud developer documentation has guides too, and kudos to the person who wrote them, but theyāre really only scratching the surface if weāre being honest.
This got much longer than I intended ā hope itās useful regardless.
ā Thomas
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Putting it through nextcloudās mechanism for software distribution is just too much overhead to deal with. Iām happy to work on my projects and even share via public git servers (like gitlab), but thatās as far as I go.
As far as Iām concerned, if youād like to publish my work on your system, then provide a form where I can submit a link to a project on GIT (and nothing else), and you can get to scan and parse the project and handle publishing it.
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One thing I noticed: Why do I have to use a web form (Generate app - App Store - Nextcloud) to generate a skeleton app to start developing? (You canāt even select NC24 as a target). I guess it would make sense (especially after reading the comments above) to offer some kind of CLI tools to: create a skeleton app, register an in the app store, publish an app, etc.
Then suddenly thereās GitHub - ChristophWurst/krankerl: A CLI helper to manage, package and publish Nextcloud apps, which looks like it would solve some of the publishing problems mentioned above, but (much like the docker dev container) itās quite inofficial and not mentioned in the documentation. There are a few good enhancement requests in the repo there:
Add commands for certificate management
Have a GitHub action
I guess this would be really appreciated to have.
Btw, the web form for the skeleton app is not correctly translated ā¦
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@juliushaertl : Yes, I have to take time to explain my problems to use your repo
But, yes, I imagine you would be happy if we give you feedbacks.
@all : What do you think if we create a new subject on docker, in general not only on Juliusā, to improve the development process ?
@TessyPowder : I am in this chatrooms and, Iām sorry, but the Talk app is not like a āDiscord-likeā or āSlack-likeā. You cannot create several channels (you have to invite the person), you cannot write markdown, you cannot create threads (bonus) and so on.
One more, with Talk you joign one group and not a server with channels to exchange.
This app is like Skype, Messenger (Facebook) or MSN Messenger (for old 
).
I think a Mattermost, RocketChat or a Discord-like itās better than Talk app.
But, I like Talk app ! Itās just an app to exchange with one person or a group limited to 5 or 10 people.
By the way, I think itās a good idea to have an app on desktop 
Iām sorry, I donāt understand why Gitpod it helped you 
For me, Gitpod itās just a VScode through the web, not more. No ?
@te-online : I agree with you on everything you said 
@SysKeeper : Oooh ! Very interesting ! I donāt know, this project by Christoph Wurst 
But, yes, I think itās very cool to have a command line to generate a skeleton like Laravel or any other tool. In general, I agree that we need a command line to :
- Generate a project
- Generate migration files
- Generate seed files
- Publish our app
- etc.
Like artisan of Laravel or Symfony
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Yes, Talk is not like Discord, but I didnāt write about them in my answer, because they are like ā¦
but because they are used for the ā¦
like you asked for.
I did not know, that you were already in these Talk rooms.
I think that the Talk rooms fulfill every function, that a discord server would, in terms of actual chatting, not function in terms of chat software features.
I think it is only logical for the nextcloud gmbh to use their own chat tool for their company and community chats.
I would rather propose making their Talk chats easier to use by splitting them up more (there are already a few, but i donāt think there is a list, so I only of the ones I am in) and creating a Community Hub Channel with a list and a way to ask/automated way for joining the specific community channels.
Well kind of, but if you screw up your dev environment you can spawn a new one and if you configured it to automatically set up, you will basically never have to debug your dev environment.
Also if you want to work on multiple branches concurrently that require changes to the dev environment you can just spawn another workspace and use both concurrently.
I use this often to test an app on multiple nextcloud versions, I do not have to spin up multiple nextcloud servers on my local machine (annoying port conflicts, clutters your storage, takes a while to install multiple times, download times limited to your internet speed), but just spawn a throwaway workspace and have a quick script, that changes the nextcloud version. After that i can just close the mess and return to a clean workspace.
It was basically the solution to dependency hell for me, which I find the most annoying about dev environments, especially if you work on mutliple things concurrently.
If you donāt run into this problem you of course donāt need a solution for it
At least I never want to have a nginx nextcloud dev server on my laptop again.
You can of course recreate this on a local machine by using multiple dockers, but that exactly is what gitpod does, but more quickly and easier.
There would also be benefits to Gitpod, not for personal projects, but for the big community/official nextcloud projects: It makes it incredibly easy for first time contributers to get started. No need to set anything up, just change something in the code and see the result. I think that is quite powerful.
(I would never recommend gitpod if it was closed source btw)
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Hmmmā¦ Yes and No ^^
Thatās not what I meant. I meant, itās better to have a platform, not only exchange message, but help each other with differents channels as I quoted here :
The main of which is to be able to share our code (with Markdown), share our ideas on UX or UI, help each other if we have a problem in our code and so on. All this, with a better flow than Talk app.
I donāt agree with you. Itās very complicated to share my code if the markdown itās not present.
One more, exchange on UI, UX, Front-End, Back-End, Database, and so on. On one groupā¦ Itās a bad idea for fluidity.
Someone who is UX or UI Designer would not talk in the channel of Talk. Because, either they will be drowned out by the messages or because itās a group for developers only.
One more, as a Front-End or Back-End developers, she/he would also feel drowned by the messages.
Maybeā¦ Or maybe not. Currently, Talk app doesnāt meet the requirements I mentioned.
After all, all depends on its orientation, either as a messaging tool like Skype, or like Slack where you can join different channels.
One more, in Talk you can invite one person on a group. If we want to stay on Talk, this means adding people one by one in each group.
If you add a UX or UI designer only in a Talk UI/UX group. You exclude them from other groups and therefore from other exchanges
But beware, this is just my opinion on the matter
In this sense, I agree. But, itās very time-consuming and not user friendly.
Again, it depends on the orientation of the app.
Oooh I see ! Itās very surprising ! 
The idea is not bad
But, I think itās heavy to use to create an app quickly.
Today, I use 2 dockers : One on the release 22 and the other on version 23.
I think a small docker based solution is a good idea and if we want to go further, we can propose Gitpod ?
I read prerequisites to install Gitpod Self-Hosted, and I feel like itās a lot to handle, no ?
I havenāt used Kubernetes yet ^^ā
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It is not one group, i think you are in just one and donāt know of the other rooms. I am for example also in the VueJS Chat, the News App Chat and Frontend/Design Chat, all in different rooms on the same nextcloud instance.
Which just further illustrates the need for a way to discover these groups. If you can only know of them if you are a member, that is quite impractical for new developers.
Absolutely, Nextcloud development of course should be easy, regardless of if you want to use Gitpod.
Until a few months ago, it was basically impossible to understand how to install it. Now they have good documentation.
I have not tried for myself yet, because it is not cost efficient for me to self host gitpod, as the limits of the free hosted version are pretty generous.
If you want self host: definitely, for beginners I meant the hosted version.
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agree here. It has to be more than simple text.
Things have to be easy to use. A continuous surge of simple text makes conversation quite challenging. In particular, if you begin to share lings URLs, quotes not talking about code yet.
You should give people a chance to leave for a couple of days but to come back on an open conversation.
(that is how I would get attracted to use it )
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This was something I want to implement for a while now so that third parties desktop/mobile apps can be listed. A bit like Clients | Matrix.org
Unfortunately I didnāt manage yet to find the time and there are more urgent things to update on the app store
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Here are those issues filed for the appstore on github
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So, it confirms that Talk is not the right tool. Because, I was well added to the group āCommunity Chatā but not to the others. And yet, I need to be added to these groups when I have a problem or suggestion on Vue.js or Design.
Yes, I agree !!! 
What do you think of docker-compose by Julius : GitHub - juliushaertl/nextcloud-docker-dev: Nextcloud development environment using docker-compose ?
But, isnāt Kubernetes resource intensive ?
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You can just search for āpublicā and see all publicly available rooms and join them
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Regarding Talk and multiple topics per discussion or whatever your are calling it, I made a proposal two years ago how I imagine how it could work in Talk. See Grouping of Chats Ā· Issue #2448 Ā· nextcloud/spreed Ā· GitHub and Grouping of Chats Ā· Issue #2448 Ā· nextcloud/spreed Ā· GitHub but open chats and being able to search for them already solves many use cases, I guess.
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It is just a container orchestration system, it itself does not have much resource usage, but the containers you run on it can.
And running a big Gitpod Instance with many users certainly takes a lot of resources.
It seems convenient, but I have not tried it yet.
I replied to your other points in the branched out thread.
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