Rocket.Chat and Nextcloud Deepen Integration

Hi all,

Sorry, we were not aware of that warning. Rocket.Chat already published a blog post (ours is based on it) and demoed the product to customers a week earlier, so I actually thought we were late.

As @mactrent says, it’s likely a coordination issue - I don’t think this warning should be there. Or they are just being careful and trying to say “don’t expect this to work for 5000 users” - which is always a very different case for a home or small business user. If you use Rocket.Chat and want this integration but don’t want to risk anything, best talk to Rocket.Chat and ask for a support contract - anything else comes without guarantees after all.

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it’s better to ship stable product late rather ship disaster too early… I was thinking the silence after 3.4.0 client disaster was caused by some QA tasks… now I see it was just another feature

exactly the opposite makes sense. An organization with 5k users must ensure the stability itself as there are more factors then just the product. such dimensions always special testing. A product released to the market must just work for home user - which I don’t expect from Nextcloud telling me don’t use it

@jospoortvliet don’t take my word personally - I really appreciate the fact you are maybe the only Nextcloud employee who visits this forum from time to time… my critics fully applies to the company!

Hi @wwe note that WE didn’t tell you not to use it, Rocket.Chat did :wink:

Otherwise, when we release something, it is designed to be usable for home users. You are 100% right that a product that has to be suitable for 5000 users (up to millions, of course) requires extra scalability testing, and that testing goes in Nextcloud Enterprise.

Thanks for the feedback, as always!

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A homeuser dosen’t need Rocket.Chat integration in Nextcloud. Matter of fact a homeuser dosen’t need any of this. Most homeusers actually could plug their phone to their computers once a month or copy their photos to an external drive like they did 10 years ago. It would be easier and more secure for them to do so. It’s a desicission to self host and while the software might be free of charge, it comes with a price. The price is to participate, to actively inform yourself, and actively maintain your installation. And a press release about a new integration of a third party app, which is not even targeted at home users, does not change anything on your instances.

Sure the issues with the sync client were huge and shouldn’t have happend. Nobody denies that. But other than that, I don’t understand the demanding attitude from many users here. The Nextcloud GmbH and especially all the volunteers who participate directly or indirectly in the Nextcloud universe owe you nothing. They don’t earn a penny from any of you and you complain when things are not running without issue right from the start or when a press releaes got out for a product, that is not ready to use in the same minute.

Maybe everything has to be turn-key and trouble free because you don’t have time to deal with issues. And maybe you don’t have time, because you have to earn money in order to finance your homelab project. So does the Nextcloud GmbH. What do you think will happen if they don’t earn enough to run their business anymore or to pay developers and marketing people. I can’t imagine that any of those who complain here, can keep a project like this going. Especially If they don’t even have time to google what rocket.chat is or build a test instance in order to try out an app :wink:

Edit:

@wwe This is not meant as personal attack or as an answer specifically to you, although I find you could start to overcome your trauma with the sync client :wink: I just got triggered by your post and took it as an excuse to drop my little rant. :wink:

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don’t worry If you dish it out, you have to be able to take it. :wink: Maybe you don’t agree with my trauma regarding the client - this was the point I finally realized Nextcloud GmbH is really bad in terms of support… and they don’t improve…

My point is not the issue itself - there is no software without bugs. I don’t really blame the fact it passed QA, the biggest problem was how they handle the issue - more or less silently fixed the code, almost no recovery support, didn’t support users with preventive measures (now 2 months ago people still report issues related to the bug), no “post mortem” to help people understand how and why the problem occured…

@bb77 I’m really surprised regarding your other statement - lot of of posts from you praise stability and long term support - how you can support release and advertise unready software? I’m not sure Rocket.Chat is nothing for home users - I like the Idea to have Talk integrated, but this feels unready (as lot other apps e.g. mail, notes) - and an alternative is welcome. AT least the fact this integration was advertised here in forum looks like they want to offer this integration not only to enterprise customers…

And I completely disagree with the statement home users don’t pay so they are not allowed to expect good software. There are enough examples free and open software can be rocket solid and a release is deferred due to a bug rather ship something too early (start with Linux kernel).

Going Open Source makes it harder to monetize your efforts, but I never heard Nextcloud is going poor, exactly the opposite is the case: they always tell “everybody is busy serving out customers”. They don’t even ask for donations from private/small customers. Nextcloud choose this way itself and I’m really thankful for this opportunity to left Google and Microsoft behind and control my data. I also do as much as I can to support others - but I’m really sad about this rush on new features and bad software quality we often see, especially in early stages of major releases…

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Yeah I agree that communication could be better. Especially regarding the sync clinet, which is a core component. And yes I think that a slower release cycle of Nextcloud or even an official LTS Release certainly would be a welcome addition, to the regular releases, maybe even for a monthly or annual fee. However, I have serious doubts that this would be profitable. And at the end of the day a solution like Nextcloud will never be a one-click set it an forget it solution, especially if you use many third party apps. But I also never had any serious, like data corruption or data loss issues with Nextcloud. Maybe because I almost never upgrade to a new major release on day one or because I don’t use Virtual Files, or maybe it was just pure luck.

Well this is one many diffrent 3rd party app integrations in the market place. Not quite comparable with the Sync Client or “official” apps from the “Hub-bundle” like Mail, Talk or the integradeted Document server.

Home users mainly need instant messaging apps like like WhatsApp or Signal, and rarly a fully fledged team communication platform like Rocket.Chat. I for my self prefer to use a self hosted XMPP server for instant messaging and 1:1 video calls. But sure you can use Rocket.Chat as a home user if you need those features, it is fully open source. And with the app we are talking about here you will be able to integrate it with Nextcloud… I think at least basic integration with Nextcloud should work at this point.

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…or mybe they could send someone to your place to give a presentation and if you like it, install it on your server :wink:

I am certainly not THAT bad :wink:

Seriously, I think it is far from unreasonable to expect in a product announcement a minimum of information about what the product actually does.

See for example in the 2018 announcement about the initial integration (in https://nextcloud.com/blog/rocket-chat-and-nextcloud-announce-partnership-and-integration/)

The integration allows users to post files from Nextcloud directly into a chat channel, enabling seamless integration between chat and file handling. By sharing project documents in a project’s chat, collaboration is simplified. Home users can easily share pictures or documents with family and friends. More integrations, that go even further than this latest iteration, are in development.

And yes, I had clicked on the links. It gave me information about what Rocket.Chat does, but absolutely nothing about what the Nextcloud-Rocket.Chat integration does.

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It’s a marketing / press release… When did you ever get uselfull information about technical details from an article like this? :wink: If you want to use it in production, even if it is only for a home server you have to test it anyways, preferable on a seperate test instance. Sure, they could have added a table in which they listed the main features off the app but they decided for some reason not to do it. However, if you read all the way to the end, it also says:

Or here:

https://rocket.chat/press-releases/rocket-chat-and-nextcloud

The Rocket.Chat app is now available on Nextcloud’s Marketplace**. In addition, both companies will host a joint live session on April 21st to talk about the benefits of the new integration and how to use it. Stay tuned to our social media channels for the official announcements!

I guess we have to wait and see… or test it out ourselves for the time beeing.

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That’s true, but it would be very nice to point out the main features to give me the chance to decide if it’s worth to test it…

In my opinion, one should be careful with the trivialization of such announcements. I personally read them, for example, mostly only crosswise, so that I remain roughly informed about the current developments, because from the experiences of the last years I know that, firstly, often little -technological and/or technical- meat is given on the bone and, secondly, the announced hardly has a sufficient development maturity for the problem-free production use - in such a case I like to let the enthusiastic and daring early adopters take the lead. If that’s the way it’s supposed to be, then everything’s fine.

Sure that’s how I read those announcements too. And if something catches my interesst I try to gather more information, find documentation or I might even install it on my test instance.

A press release is about announcing a new product or new features. It’s not a technical manual.
IT professionals in a company are not going to launch a few Docker containers based on a press release and some random HowTos on the internet and then move all the users and data to it, only to realize a week later that it doesn’t work the way they thought it would. That’s what home users do, and then they complain here when it doesn’t what they thought it would do or, in the worst case, they even expirience data loss. A professional on the other hand will install the product on a test instance and test it against a set of requirements that has been defined beforehand.

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Agreed in principle, but the question remains, in my opinion, who is the primary target audience of these announcements here. Professional customers usually have an Account Manager designed who keeps them up to date and makes sure that any necessary context of such an announcement is provided via audio track. I can’t shake the feeling that the community is simply being held up as beta testers without transparent communication of the risks involved. I can live and deal with it, but in Nextcloud’s place I would definitely use a slightly different communication strategy… my 2 cents.

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I think we can all agree that after the announcement and release of Nextcloud 23 and Nextcloud Office, things were not ideal. And at the same time there were still the issues with the sync client. But at the end of the day, Nextcloud doesn’t communicate any better or worse than other OSS projects. They have a bug tracker on GitHub and a user forum.

The main difference compared to other OSS projects is that Nextcloud includes much more individual components. Everyone uses it differently and not everyone uses all the apps and features in every combination.

There are many third party apps like the one we are talking about right now. There are also apps like the built-in document server or the backup app, which are probably not used in companies that buy support from the Nextcloud GmbH at all. The developement of these apps is mostly community driven and specifically designed for home users and small deployments and therfore the only feedback they can get ist the one from us users.

Bottom line: Nextcloud is significantly more complex than other more purpose-built projects that home users typically use. This makes it much harder to stay up to date and to track bugs, for both the users and the developers.

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given that you’re on the user/communityforum which implies you are using a free software that came to you with absolutely NO cost it’s quite … ummm… outrageous to expect any “support” at all. Apart from the one here on the forum.

regardless of the fact that everyone needs to decide themselves whether they’re gonna use an app or not Rocket.Chat IS nothing more/less than a 3rd party app. It’s not maintained by NC in any way.

it’s wishful thinking. Of course you should expect that. But knowing NC for some time now you should be aware of their high release plan… which of course often comes with certain bugs. Keeping that in mind I myself usually don’t upgrade to new versions early. Regardless of additional apps or core NC.

I know they heard and acknowledged the problem and are already trying to communicate better (see Update Maintenance and Release schedule (with NC 24 ahead)) - let’s hope that’s the first step to improvement.

@all could we please get back on topic here?
Everyone has had their word about personal frustrations (again: they have been heard, so no need to mention them all over the place again and again), every point has been discussed.

This thread is a press release, most probably released here via a bot.
It makes perfect sense to post it on the communityforum as well for all interested ppl.
If you want further informations on some points you are on yourself to try finding some more. That’s the way it is. I don’t see anyone coming to your home explaining every app to you back and forth so that you’re best informed about what a certain app does and what not. At least not right now.

Special thanks to @bb77 for holding up the flag for NC here. Wisely answered to all and everything.

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Agreed, just a quick note: From a distance and anxious to avoid any bias, I think both @bb77 and @wwe contributions are each very valuable, ultimately both showing IMHO a strong commitment to help others and towards Nextcloud. And especially coming from such engaged members of the community, critical appreciations are quite valuable to Nextcloud, I would say.

I am sure that all of us here are basically very grateful to be able to use such a great product privately and for free, and also willing to face all the technical challenges, without any question. That said, not least because of the complexity and versatility of the product, the contribution of the community is so important for Nextcloud: it helps decisively to check the product maturity and, well-managed feedback given, to avoid fiascos and if not, to react to them quickly and transparently. In this sense, I’m also one of them that think the whole process has a lot of room for improvement, starting with the setup of Beta/RC tests, announcements and communication in general, the release strategy or the handling of changes on the base product and all of the apps relaying on or interfering with it. My 2 cents here.

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Because of TLDR, I don’t know if anybody answered you yet. If your question wasn’t rhetorical…
RocketChat is to Slack what Nextcloud is to Google Services. So if you know about any of the hype about Slack and all their channels and containerized pockets of thought management, RocketChat is a front-end to operate on a Matrix back end, and [matrix] is an elusive concept too.
As I understand it, it’s an internet on the Internet where its method of updating shared communications/data between complex maps of people and/or objects is the best we can hope for.

It’s getting easier to find people that stepped back from Slack and noticed it’s making us in some cases into hard-drives thrashing to keep up with requests and never taking the time to finish anything, but when we’re pressed to our distraction limits, we can’t tell that we are losing too much time swapping out our own brain’s RAM to get on one of the other most important things.

:smile: :clap: :clap: :clap:
Well said. I looked into RocketChat and got lost in all the channnels it provide. Too much for me.

Rocket.chat has nothing to do with Matrix. They are both decentralized, open source communication platforms with different code bases. Their backends are completely unrelated.

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Yes. I did an idiot thing there. It started from remembering things wrong and compounded by using the wrong adjectives. My brain replaced RocketChat with Element then did a confabulation with [matrix] and said front-end when I was thinking client. Have I almost redeemed myself? :rofl: Maybe I was stoned at the time? In all the mistakes, I still described RocketChat pretty well.

https://matrix.org/clients/

No problem, don’t want to not confuse anyone.

Rocket.chat is a self hosted chat tool. Very similar to Slack, but open source and actually more robust… a nice option among other great choices from Matrix, Mattermost, etc.

Nextcloud is a self hosted file server. Similar to Google Drive, but open source… a nice option among other great choices from FileStash, Owncloud, FileRun, etc.

Connecting these services together is a nice touch. Hopefully it develops into a really solid integration beyond the current webdav filesystem support already offered.

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