All the time fatal errors in the log , last chance for Nextcloud

Nextcloud version (eg, 12.0.2): 18.0.2
Operating system and version (eg, Ubuntu 17.04): ?
Apache or nginx version (eg, Apache 2.4.25): ?
PHP version (eg, 7.1): ?
The settings/admin/overview page does not show any errors or suggestions, so I think our hoster knows how to configure Nextcloud properly.
We use Collabora Online.

The issue you are facing:
We use Nextcloud in a small business environment, ca 40 users, ca 10 machines with sync clients. About 30GB of data, all shared from one admin user to various user groups.
We are seeing fatal errors in the log and in the sync client all the time and our hoster says they can not do anything about it. It happens when we move/delete files and folders, also when moving them via the web interface, but sometimes they just come out of the blue. Our Hoster says it is because we use sync clients and shares and server encryption, and that Nextcloud is not meant to be used like that. We have that problem for about a year now, back then we used NC16, then 17, now latest 18.0.2 - always the same problems.
I have the “File was deleted from server” error in various sync clients right now.
I have many “Bad signature” and “No read permissions” fatal errors in the log right now.
Reproducability: I bet if I start moving files & folders now, it will create more errors, but I don’t know for sure and I don’t really want to do that.

I think Nextcloud is on an exciting path, and I would be happy to help improve this product, but really, if we cannot fix these issues within the next two months we will need to move away, probably try seafile then. Last chance for Nextcloud.

So - What do you need to know?

What kind of error get you?
Can you give us a output of nextcloud.log?

dear @alexanderdd

you have been so honest to confess that this is for a small business company.
but nevertheless a company.

so maybe you could find help here on the communityforum (which was established for mostly homeusers)… but that’s not given.
it would be only fair if you’d try to get a deal from nextcloud gmbh which includes support. just talk to them about a reduced fee and see what comes out of it. nextcloud gmbh needs to make a living as well so that they could provide better and more (and bugfree) services in the future.

i just wanted to bring that to your attention. of course you are allowed to ask your questions here on the forum and hope for someone being able to help you.

but if this try is gonna fail, it’s not the fault of nc nor the forum… and i guess we all would be sad if you’d go and seek for a different project with different flaws … whereas seafile runs a similar concept. a free community version and a paid enterprise version.

on another point: why did you skip the template that comes up when you’re opening a new thread here? you easily could fill it in by using issue template app with your server.
it provides many informations that maybe would be needed to at least have a chance to answer correctly on your problems…

good luck

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I fully agree with @JimmyKater.

But anyway, avoid using the sync clients and see if it still happens.
(Not a solution, of course, but at least narrowing down the problem to the sync clients, if it doesn’t occur any more)

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You could have two issues :
1- The hoster who maybe don’t know how to configure a Nextcloud instance well.
2 - The Encryption who isn’t fairly stable.

You should try without Encryption, if you still have issues you should change your Hoster.

I have 7 clients that use Nextcloud intensively. they all have more than 500GB of data, the max instance i have is a 15TB of data. They all have local servers for performances reasons. They don’t have those kind of problems.

My first Nextcloud server was on a VPS at OVH with 20GB of data, even with the first release of Nextcloud, i didn’t get sync problems…

The desktop client (sync) had problems between v.2.5.0 to v.2.6.3. Now with v.2.6.4 i don’t have to blame the desktop client. But again i don’t use the Encryption.

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Thanks for your replies everyone!

Nextcloud Log: https://box.alexandermueller.org/index.php/s/Yz4K7egK7WL85KS
Configuration overview: https://box.alexandermueller.org/index.php/s/eLfX9WrdCxdHCRL
(Links only valid for a month)

Encryption is a must for us, not debatable. If encryption is not stable in Nextcloud, then NC is not the right product for us.

Sync clients: not using sync clients is not an option, we sometimes work with complicated spreadsheets with makros that only work locally. All clients are 2.6.4, still problems.

Yes I was thinking about getting Nextcloud gmbh subscription, but 1900 € per year… even if they give us a big discount it will probably be too much… Current hoster is charging 40€/year/50gb/unlimited users. We can pay more but not soooo much more. Maybe we’ll try a different hoster.

In the long run we will probably also use a local server, but the problem is that internet connection at the office is really bad (16mbps, only 8mbps coming through, ISPs say we can’t get faster connection), so files will be available fast within the office but not outside of it (and that is the whole point of using cloud, isn’t it?).

In times of corona is when we need Nextcloud the most, and just today I ran into these new problems:

  • when I create a new user, add him to a user group, the folders that are shared with this group don’t show up in his nextcloud.
  • Nextcloud Talk is very unreliable for us, sometimes there is a voicechat where some people dont hear each other, but a third person can hear all of them. And I have not managed to join a Talk Videochat with the Android Talk app from Google Play, tried in different Networks with different people.
  • My computer crashed, and the document that was open in Collabora Online can not be opened after that by none of the users via web interface. I had to make a copy of the file that I had synced to my laptop and upload it. So not using sync clients is not an option, cause Collabora is not stable enough.

Nextcloud is just a big pain for me at the moment.

You do have a TURN server (e.g. CoTURN) set up and correctly configured for Talk?

And without the high performance backend from Nextcloud GmbH you won’t be able to support more than a handful of users, anyway.
Use something else for conferencing, although 8MBps is a major problem in itself.

i’m afraid that you might be asking too much of yourself in terms of maintaining such a server yourself… if you even can’t answer all of these quite simple questions. i am really sorry to be that open to you. it’s not meant personal in any way.

i strongly recommend some external help to you. why not trying nextcloud gmbh? you even didn’t talk to them, yet… and then after you got your answer you should re-think what it would save you in terms of flawless working-structures and stuff…

but maybe you should address your hoster first. if they are providing nextcloud to you… if they aren’t able to maintain a product they offer and sell… then it could be that they aren’t fair and/or the right hoster for you (or anyone)

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I will create an instance with E2E, i will do some simple test.
If it’s okay for me,
i will get in touch with you.
You will try it with some random file and tell me if you have the same error.

For the Nextcloud Talk you need better bandwidth or Stun/Turn Server. Nextcloud GmbH have a special Talk version for paid Entreprise customers.
You could try also Jitsi that is really good on performances, but again it needs Stun/Turn Server. You could try some sessions there : https://framatalk.org/accueil/fr/info

I think some terms have gotten messed up here. To shed some light:

  • STUN Server: No problem, is supplied to the public by Nextcloud and Google and set as default for Talk
  • TURN Server: Can be needed for clients behind NAT (so in theory not always necessary)
    Not provided by Nextcloud to the public. You need an own server with the typical software CoTURN. Not possible on the usual shared hosting services. You need a root server.
  • Signaling server: Not a WebRTC Standard, it is proprietary. If you want to use one with Talk you need the one supplied by Nextcloud GmbH “Nextcloud Talk High Performance Backend starting at Eur 4000/USD 4500” (https://nextcloud.com/talk/)

tl;dr
“A STUN server is used to get an external network address.
TURN servers are used to relay traffic if direct (peer to peer) connection fails.”
“Most WebRTC calls successfully make a connection using STUN: 86%, though this can be less for calls between peers behind firewalls and complex NAT configurations.”

If you want to dive deeper into WebRTC/ICE/STUN/TURN/Signaling this site has a nice overview:

Server side encryption is asking for trouble. Please disable it and check if your problems still exist. To secure your data use E2EE with a tool like Cryptomator. You will save yourself a lot of trouble.

But is it usable with a shared folder upon several users ?